Are morals independent or absolute or what?

Morality is an independent reality?

Morals don't exist for an individual. They are a Collective. Just like particles interacting with the environment do so as a collective. Then they conform.

 Morality and ethics are a collective. If you take any group you look at you cannot then look at it with you on it from an external force onto an inward one. You have to see how the people in the group feel and think . From the inside to the inside. If those people are feeling oppressed or hurt or they feel pain about this sacrificing of children then for that group it is not good. If no one in the group had any feelings or care about a sacrifice of a child, even the child itself then is it morally wrong for the group? If they were say robots with no care of their death? For them then that would not be immoral. But that is because morality is contingent upon the collective. Nature works as a collective.

I then came across this article which seems to think somewhat like  I mentioned:

"Law instead follows from collective behavior, as do things that flow from it, such as logic and mathematics. The reason our minds can anticipate and master what the physical world does is not because we are geniuses but because nature facilitates understanding by organizing itself and generating law." -http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/writers/laughlin.cfm

I would add this law comes from the collective, how the parts work together and this is really how morals and ethics evolve as well.

Of course this is Laughlin who Kruass criticized, but I agree with Laughlin here. 

I completely disagree that without science you can't have morals or ethics. Compassion and how you feel, empathy and being selfless has nothing to do with science. You might be able to understand better what it is or where it came from...but yes you have to understand consequences to have some judgment of it, but you don't need science for that either. You simply need reason/logic/understanding a sequence of events. This is not science. Again science may help us understand what logic and reason is or where it came from, but it is not science itself. Reason and emotion determine your ethics and morals. Science simply helps us understand how and why of all of it.

As a mother Bonobo looks at her baby, she follows her instincts and her compassion and the level of teaching of care giving from her small community. She knows nothing of science. She is merely following her emotions and level of reason.

As an outside judgment of humans we can look at them and judge, but they are judgers of their own culture and own behavior. What they have deemed acceptable will pass and what is not will not in their group. That is their moral and ethic code.

Water, Tree of Life, Bible, Science, Darwin, Indians

Let us imagine for a brief minute that everything is water. The tree outside is water. The person beside you is water. The food you are eating is water. The sky above is water. The universe is water. You are water. Yes, imagine everything to be water. 

Now imagine, everything is linked because it is in fact all the same water...Rushing in and out of itself. 

Now, your mind and all consciousness imagine to be a net. 

This net moves through this water, catching things that are physical. The (water or the consciousness) manifested a table which got caught in your net, manifested a crab which got caught in your net, manifested a person which got caught in your net, manifested a star which got caught in your net. 

But all these physical things you caught are not real. They are not the water, but a manifestation- an illusion. The real is this water, this substance that is all things, this substance that we can't catch in our net to perceive it, see it or measure it. 

The water, the real, passes through our net all the time with little perception from most of us. 

It is interesting to me that the book of Genesis and even scriptures from other cultures use water to describe the early beginnings. Water is a very interesting phenomenon. In Genesis, the spirit hovered and moved over the surface of the abyss. The Earth was described first as a ball of water. 

Another picture from an image is that of a tree. In Genesis we find the Tree of Life. It is a very interesting image conjured in our minds. A TREE. And what is this tree of? LIFE.

Now, has anyone read Darwin's great book, Origin of the Species? Umm...I think there is something in there about a tree. Oh, yeah, the tree of biological evolution. 

Is it just me, or do those two trees seems very similar? 

On a different subject:

I think that if in biology we can see all our physical make-up described, retained and encoded into a single genome code, a code which could be considered in a way less then 3D...it makes sense that all the non-biology physical make-up would be found to be described, retained and encoded in a 2D format as well. 

This is what the current physicists are finding. This is called the Holographic Universe principle and while it was once not considered very viable, it is now being considered by most to be one of the more accurate descriptions of our universe. 

All the information that makes up our everything is really a code which we can't see directly. This makes everything we see really an illusion. Science is now showing us what many ancient spiritualists had said for millennia.  

I think that our FIELDS act actually like FILTERS, which filter this code from the other side... to our side. The information may look very disordered to us on the other side or perhaps it looks very ordered, but once it vibrates through the FIELDS, it takes on independent characteristics, in a way- like a personality, that makes the information appear separate and as independent parts and in a form we understand -have evolved to perceive. 

But lots of information is vibrating from the 2D format and in and out of this 'sphere of water' yet we don't perceive much of it, only that which is filtered through our fields which then becomes a part of our physical reality. 

Sometimes we might indirectly see some of this information and that is what virtual particles would be I think. "Virtual particles" are coming out of the nothingness of our space. This nothingness still has fields though and so the "wave-information" however minor has an interaction, but is not completely filtered to our physical reality so we don't experience it. 

I'll finish with my latest opinion in response to another closed minded individual caught in the web of reason alone while wearing blinders:

 No, I'm not saying to give credibility to other people's experiences. If you have not experienced it or have evidence of it then it would be stupid of you to just accept it.

What I am saying is that there is a difference to being narrow in your view of things, and open in your view of things. There is a difference in being blinded by your own arrogance and open to understanding. 

Humans don't have all the answers and might not be able to find them all. Our minds can only understand and perceive so much.

For myself I don't take the view so black and white as you. In my opinion you are superficially looking at faiths of the world like most and therefore seeing contradictions and so they are all wrong. 

I have two comments on that.

If you look at the words of the spiritual leaders and not the mumo-jumbo (Buddha, Hindu Guru, Kabbalist, Christ, Rumi) you find a lot of similarity. There is a common thread of oneness of everything, selflessness, compassion, love, harmony, denial of self, and many more commonalities.    

(In fact much of what the ancient Indian Spiritualist and Kabbalist and Sufist taught are showing to be possibly accurate by modern science from big bang, to worm holes, to the holographic universe, to everything literally being one though it appears separate, to the wholeness of all, to it all coming from nothing -which should be understood as a dynamic eternal nothingness not in the sense most think of it).

The geography, language, rituals, superstitions, clothing, dogma, and supernatural explanations are all just lines to make boxes for everyone to fit into. This is the superficial mumbo jumbo and was not taught by the spiritual leaders. 

There is an old Indian story: 
     There are six people in a dark room and one moves to the center to hit an object. He says, "It is a long bumpy thing with slim at the end." Another man moves to the center and says, "No, it is large and wide and leathery." The other man comes to the center and says, "No, it is short and furry and soft." The other man says, "No, it is like five rocks sitting on the sand." The next man says, "No, it is beating thump thump." The last man says, "No, it is flappy, and rounded and soft."
Then, the lights turn on and they see they have all found different parts to the same whole ---an elephant. 
 
FYI: Ancient people were capable of figuring out all kinds of things. The Mayans and Egyptians both had highly sophisticated understanding of the cosmos and the human body. Further since these ancient peoples of the world lived in nature constantly, not in front of computers or TVs or phones, they were not disconnected like many of us today and so could understand nature in ways that would evade us. 
   

Fairies, God, Nature, Spirit, Connection

The Argument:

There are actually thousands of scriptures from around the ancient world about unicorns and fairies.
The dominant religions in Europe before Christianity took over were full of fairies. As well as other ancient religions around the world with almost identical myths (although different NAMES for what were essentially fairies).
The same case that is made for the existence of god, could be made for the existence of fairies.

And if god is in reference only to our personal needs, and only dwells within us? Than it's not god, it's just some psychological construct.

The Response:


Frankly, I don't think much of what u r referring to is myth. I call it legend. Most stories are embedded in some form of fact, something that happened and a story emerges from there. There probably were some kind of horses with one horn on their head which is how the stories may have started. There are fossils of one horned horses actually. Even trolls and leprechauns may have an actual link to a real people which was shown on the discovery channel. A very short species. 

Not sure what u mean by only our personnel needs and something within us. I would't agree that if that is all it is then its merely psychological. But to me, "god" is something that is used to describe what is within all living things and even non-living things, that connects everything to itself and manifests in all living things. Is everything and nothing. 

I don't think the material world is real at all, but an illusion.

And I think nature is far more interesting than most of you give it credit for, and doesn't have to make sense to us, or be measured by us or dissected by us to be.

I think a connection to something allows u to understand it in a way mere measurements alone cannot. I can dissect ur brain, but that tells me nothing of how well you spoke English or your mathematical skill. When I am connected to u, get to know u then I learn these things. Scientists in the past failed to see how clever great apes were by mere measurements. It was three women who dared to named their apes and connect to them that learned and showed everyone how amazing they really were. 

 People of the past may not have the sophisticated tools we have today, the computers and fancy gizmos that allow such precise measurements. But they were connected to nature in a way many of us fail today.

Connecting allows for intuitive truth, which is why Einstein rightly understood SR even though no one understood how and why he would come up with it. 

Why former Christians have the worst understanding of the scriptures

I love to rip on everyone, don't take it personally.

This is in response to a few misunderstood scriptures also taken out of context by a former fundamentalist.



On when Christ spoke about the fig tree: 

U don't understand that the fig tree is a symbol of bearing fruit and not bearing fruit. That what you are in your heart is what you bear. And if your heart is fruitless, it may always be fruitless. 

U really don't get anything that was said, wow. I'm all for your mentioned scientists, but you should try to understand the words in context of when and how they were written like all words.

On Europe not washing their hands and dying. Why didn't god warn them to wash hands:

Matthew 15:
  “Why don’t your disciples obey what our ancestors taught us to do? They don’t even wash their hands before they eat. These pharisees wanted to know why Jesus did not do this and therefore we can conclude they did. They were taught this in the Levitical laws, which by your fundamental upbringing you certainly have missed. Was it god? Maybe not...but the Jewish people weren't stupid. 

It was Europe, who rejected Jewish teachings who suffered from the above. God's plan? No. But rejection of what was already taught. 

On all the mixing of Leviticus prohibited:

What harm could it bring to mix grains? Grains have been known to overgrow one another and then destroy the weaker gene. This makes one grain extinct. 

The sanitation of today was different from then. Pig and shrimp did kill. They are bottom dwellers, eating anything. It is unsanitary. 

Linen and wool is not because of fashion. One is made from animal and the other of plant. Much of the mixing (of various things in the laws) could be said to symbolize mixing of faiths or relating to the story of Cain and Abel where one brought wool and the other plant...but practically Jewish people had reasons for things and many times these have a scientific correlation or moral correlation (or at least what was moral for the time). 

The passage has to do with SEWING the two together, not wearing the two together. It is like saying what nature has produced, I will make better. And what a wonderful job man has done. 

Can we say Factory Farming. 


The stories in Genesis don't belong to Christians. They are Mesopotamian stories. Egyptians, Assyrians, Sumerians and Hebrews all had them. People didn't tell truths in fact, fact, fact, fact format like you are used to today.

You have to understand HOW they wrote. 

Truths are told, though something is not factual. 

FYI: Most of the Genesis account can be found in Mesopotamia from the possible Tower of Babel, to the possible Garden of Eden. Stories began because something actually did happen and they wanted to convey the truth of what happened.

Also- images and pictures are a very important literary device. The picture you form in your head when you read Tree of Life is very interesting and can be understood even by a child. Do you see the tree? Now, go read Darwin's Origin of the Species. "

Nothing is an Accident?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R16cXQBndQ&list=UU2Xd902w9u5_2oa7SHFSvZw&index=2


This is interesting, because I agree with much of what he says, but then I'm not sure how he is concluding because of Higgs, that means everything is an accident. We don't know.

We don't really know if there is something on the other side of big bang and time pulling the strings. If how this entity works is through randomness and accidents or intentional accidents or hands-off.
But let us say for the sake of argument that it is accidental...that doesn't mean it is not purposeful.

We think of things in terms of intentions because our minds work that way, our space-time physical forms are trained that way.

But what if accidents are purposeful?

Eventually something will come from the nothing, and given enough time there will be life and eventually life that will have a higher intellect which can draw meaning.

Eventually there will be meaning from every accident and from every accident something will happen. Sometimes this something survives and sometimes not.

Whatever path we choose will also derive meaning.

So, even if everything we know is accidental (as we define intent) so what? Meaning is still inevitable. And if time is an illusion and not linear, if reality is past-present-future as one. If reality is really such that everything is one....then the ending is the beginning...the beginning the ending. The meaning was from the beginning too.

And this says nothing of how spiritual energy works. Perhaps the spirit doesn't have intentions, but simply is.


And what about Nothing? Was it accidental? Did it always exist?

We really had two options for most people: It all came from nothing or something eternal. For myself, I always saw a third option of an eternal nothingness.

This is what I think best describes from where it all came.

But then what is nothingness? Does it retain any order? Any information? Does it have mass? I think we have established yes in QP, right. Does it retain conscious energy? What kind of energy is it?

Compassion and Evolution-What do you think?

I have seen that compassion is actually taught. For instance my cat naturally if we want to say genetics and evolved traits- was naturally more aggressive. Of course, he is wild like all cats. 

But I am very affectionate and loving and compassionate to him and so in time, he has begun to exhibit these traits in return. The more I kiss him or hug him, the more he reciprocates. But if he is startled outside he reverts back to agrees ion with me for a moment. So, he is capable of both.

But what will he be depends on his environment. 

I have seen a study on television where when you are compassionate to another human being, that part of their brain actually goes on and developes more. You even develop yours more the more you use it. 

So, compassion is defiantly something, in my opinion, something that can be taught and is carried on by living organisms exhibiting this trait to others.

Not just a born with it and so you got it kind of thing.

So, in this very symbiotic sense is where the evolution of compassion takes place, I think.

So- that is why in my opinion religion has played a big part in this evolution of compassion.

Yes, human beings have evolved the capacity to be violent and also to be kind, just like most animals.

But what traits persist and grow and evolve further?

Evolution is a participatory natural process in my opinion. We don't sit on the side lines and everything just happens to us. We are contributing to our own evolution and this is a very important part for people to understand.

What you put in the mixing pot is going to come out of it. 

This is where religion or culture plays a very instrumental part of morals or compassion in my opinion, continuing to evolve and hopefully for the better. 

Any animal can show meanness or kindness. Chicken fights is an environment that supports violence and so the chickens become more violent. Chickens in small spaces even pluck each other to death.
Kinda like children misbehave when in small spaces.

So our environment, the non-living environment as well as the living environment, which includes the consciousness there, effects the evolutional progression. 

Culture is a part of all animals consciousness in my opinion.

Religion is a part of human's consciousness, and is another aspect of culture. 

So, we have to consider both when we consider compassion and the effects both have played. 

How is God in us?

I recently read an article asking How God can be inside of us?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherhowse/7379255/How-can-God-be-inside-us.html

My views are such as this:

God is everywhere, every when, and everything, nowhere, no when, and nothing. When we start to ask questions like "where" is God, we begin to put God into a space-time physical description which God is not. God is not in one location, the spirit is in all locations and since it is no thing, it is in no locations by all physical definitions.

God, in my view, is very much in the rock as well as in a human being. It is just that the human being can be aware of God in itself and its connectedness to the whole and the rock is not aware. This is because God is a breathing interconnected spirit much like a web. The spirit breathing within everything, sustaining everything. The same fundamental energy of nothingness is within the rock and is within us.

All this physical world is within what I would call the "water" or God. The "water" is this spirit and every Thing is floating around in this "water", seeing its separateness. It is all made up of this fundamental water which for all physical definitions is nothing. It is all sustained by this water since it exists within it.

Our brains are like nets fishermen use to catch fish. We catch fish and see this physical phenomenon and think this is the real, this physical thing we eat. But we miss all the water passing through our nets, the actual spirit sustaining us and making us and connecting us to everything else. In fact we are this water too but temporarily have taken the illusionary form of a net. The more we attach ourselves to this net, the more we think we are the net when in fact we are not.

How is God in us? The water is passing through us all the time already, as it is all things, all the time, in all places. The question is are you aware or conscious of the filling? Are you awakened?